Curse

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

The higher priority is almost certainly an effort to prevent account sharing. At least that's what I got out of the long discussions on guild-hall around a year and a half ago on the matter.

Peace,
-CxE

Ishmaeel · Apr 21, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetWookie

...If Prophesies had 7 slots and Factions had 9 slots I would be perfectly happy...

Thank you for being honest about what you want, which is 7+2+1=9 and not 4+4=8 (with the hidden +1 and the final sum of 9) -- people were driving me crazy to use the 4+4=8 equation to imply that basic mathematics were undeniable proof that their demands MUST be met. This tells me you are not one of those unthinking whineys and so I can tell everyone that I agree with you on this part wholeheartedly without fear of association with a crybaby.

Yes, the original number of slots were not desirable. Yes, even though the increase in numbers (1 slot per new class) is perfect, we do not end up with a desirable number of slots, because we started with a wrong number in the first place. Yes, I do want 9 slots, even though I don't PvP yet.

However, (the rest of my post is not directed at you, WetWookie)

We, the players, are in a business relationship with ArenaNet. As much as we love each others, we essentially are not a big family nor a big band of friends. They are in this to make money. We are in this to have fun. They supply the fun, we pay them. Business.

Gli, I will be quoting you now, not to direct the following at you, but to offer my view on what you stated, for everybody to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

...ANet never offered us a good explanation...

Now, in business, one has to balance the honesty factor. If the business is pure money-making and no honesty, it is called a scam. If a company tries to put all their honesty on top of their money-making, well, they would be scamming themselves, since it wouldn't work. A company will not be successful by coming out and saying "We want you to like us better than our competitors so that you will keep doing business with us and therefore we can make more money, which is what this is all about". Instead they say the diplomatic thing to say: "We want to serve you better".

ArenaNet really does want to sell us more than one copies of the game. ArenaNet really does want us to buy every upcoming chapter, more than one copies, if possible. At the very least, ArenaNet wants to sell us character slots. It is their business plan. Since they are not charging monthly, they wish to make their money in this way. They cannot do this if they give us all the slots we can use and continuous free updates like the SF.

But they cannot come out and "offer an explanation" about this either and unless the lack of honesty exceeds the "scam threshold", it is not called dishonesty. It is the subtle nuance present in what is called "professionalism". The fact that they want (need) us to keep buying is unspoken but (supposedly) universally understood. A professional supplier does not speak of some things and a professional client (yes, there is such a thing) understands it and silently respects it as long as xe believes the deal is still good value for xes money and does not violate xes interests more than it benefits xim.

But all the time, there are customers who do not grasp this concept and scream "bloody conspiracy" when they sense the underlying money-making plan. In fact, it is no conspiracy, it is not even secret, and those who understand the true meaning of "professionalism" and the diplomatic "dishonesty" involved in it will silently ignore their screams and patiently wish they would stop embarassing them.

I always knew they would offer additional slots for purchase one day. I expected one slot to be priced at about $15 (slightly more than the price of one retail copy /4, since an extra slot is better value than an empty new account/4 with the merging aspect) and pleasantly surprised to learn that they decided to offer the slots for their current price. There are people who claim the slots would be more "reasonably priced" at about 3-5 bucks. I silently ignore them.

To sum up, I understand why people want more (hell, I want more) but for the life of me, I cannot understand how people cannot see why they cannot have more.

Oh, by the way, (not kidding or being sarcastic here) I want 25 slots. 8 for Tyria pre-searing, 8 for Tyria post-searing, 8 for Cantha, and 1 for good measure so they would sit in a neat 5x5 grid on the login screen. This number may go up, if I like the Factions tutorial area as much as I like the pre-searing.

crimsonfilms · Apr 21, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The higher priority is almost certainly an effort to prevent account sharing. At least that's what I got out of the long discussions on guild-hall around a year and a half ago on the matter.

Peace,
-CxE

Ahh, but Ensign, they are willing to milk the people with 2 accounts.
Their logic gets worse by the second.

Also, how does setting up an arbitrary slot number prevent account sharing?
I am curious.

Quote:

Where did this "We deserve 8" come from? Desire.
This is the point im trying to drive.
We should only get 4, but they give us 6.

And where did 4 and 6 come from? Greed.
Makes 'desire' reasonable to me.

lyra_song · Apr 21, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Ahh, but Ensign, they are willing to milk the people with 2 accounts.
Their logic gets worse by the second.

Elaborate please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Also, how does setting up an arbitrary slot number prevent account sharing?
I am curious.

I dont think its arbitrary at all. Each slot is a primary with a secondary. 3 slots would allow 3 primaries and 3 secondaries, enough to unlock most/all of the skill sets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

And where did 4 and 6 come from? Greed.
Makes 'desire' reasonable to me.

Find me someone who doesnt want 6 slots for Prophecies and 8 slots for factions.

Since i dont have to pay a monthly fee, im fine with having only 4 slots total and only pay $50 for an account i can use forever.

Theres a set back to everything. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

If i want to use Apply Poison, i have to deal with the 15 energy cost. If i want to use Meteor Shower, i have to deal with the long casting duration.

I understand the nature of the beast.

Mandy Memory · Apr 21, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetWookie

I would agree with this analogy....

if Anet's goal was to make my characters happy instead of me. I'm the one paying for the products, not my characters.

A more accurate analogy would be
One 4 hour ticket to theme park = $50
One 4 hour ticket to water park = $50
One 6 hour ticket to theme+water park = $100

Wouldn't you expect the package deal to be less then the full cost of both tickets or at the very least get the same content (8 hours)?

So far...this sums up all of the anti-6-slot arguments into one senseless rambling. (That doesnt make sence)

Its simple to understand why we are getting what we are getting. I dont see why everyone thinks it is so hard, or why anyone cares anymore with the ability to buy slots.

WetWookie · Apr 21, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

How does my post make any less sense then the opening post. If you have nothing to add to the conversation other then bashing the people who disagree with you then don't post at all.

lyra makes post that I disagree with. However she is not just bashing. She is trying to explain how she feels. I respect that. But just coming on and saying "I disagree with you so you must be rambling senslessly are you're an idiot because you don't agree with me" is just stupid.

Numa Pompilius · Apr 21, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

The logic here is flawed. The logic is actually this:

New stand alone game which can not be interfaced with other games: $40
Result: Everyone is fine with that.

New stand-alone game which can be interfaced with another stand-alone game to produce added content: $40.
Result: Bitch & Moan.

Mordakai · Apr 21, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I hate the "I'm getting ripped off argument."

If Anet said that merging Factions with Prophecy netted you 8 slots, but then only gave you 6... they would be ripping you off. They did not deliver what they promised.

But, Anet has said clearly what you get by merging Factions with Prophecy. It cannot be a ripoff, because you know what you are getting.

So now, it's everybody's choice what to do: Buy Factions or Not. It's really that simple, this argument over slots is a moot point.

Big Tony · Apr 21, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

It seems the majority of people are very happy about the situation. Most of the posts on both of the "new character slots" threads have thanked Anet for offering something they have been requesting since day one. Why does the opposing group, not agreeing with the cost or amount of extra slots, keep trying to convince everyone else otherwise?
It would seem to me that if you dont like the idea, you dont have to pay for it. You can complain to the customer support or the Devs but I doubt they'll listen, since an obvious majority of people are excited by the idea of having more slots.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Ahh, but Ensign, they are willing to milk the people with 2 accounts.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Businesses take money from people who want to buy more of their products OH MY GOD THAT IS SO UNETHICAL.

ARENA.NET IS MILKING ME FOR $50 WITH EVERY RELEASE I HATE THEM FOREVER.

What, exactly, would you propose they do? Kindly tell people who want a second copy of the game "no, I'm sorry, we can't do that, selling you something you want would be 'exploitation'"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Also, how does setting up an arbitrary slot number prevent account sharing?

Because clearly people find multiple character slots desirable - some people have gone far enough that they've bought additional copies of the game. It discourages account sharing for exactly the same reason, because people want more than one character and the space gets cramped extremely quickly if you only get half an account's space.

In other words the account 'size', in terms of character slots and storage space was carefully chosen to be large enough for *most* people, while still not being nearly enough for two people. Are there people sharing accounts because they're finding a way to fit within a single account's space? Yes. Are there people who want additional space badly enough to buy another account? Yes. Are they a large market segment? Not if they chose the size correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

And where did 4 and 6 come from? Greed.

No, they didn't come from greed. People love to throw that word around and destroy the meaning of it. It is not a word that applies to normal wants and desires. It is a term that applies to wants and desires that are in *gross excess* of what is reasonable.

Oh, those greedy businesses trying to make money! Oh, those greedy players, trying to get a game they want to play! Nothing is reasonable anymore!

Are people in this thread really so stupid as to believe that the reason for a character slot limit was to encourage people to buy second accounts? Do you honestly believe they were sitting around trying to figure out just how few character slots people would put up with getting from an account before they just stopped buying the game? I can virtually guarantee you that people buying second accounts was not a significant factor in the decision to set an account at four character slots.

I can also guarantee that all of these issues about shared accounts and potential lost sales were brought up when discussing selling additional slots, as well as a bunch of other legal issues, and the only reason you can expand your account slotwise is because they expect to make enough money off of the dedicated gamers to make up for any lost sales due to account sharing.

Peace,
-CxE

Cjlr · Apr 21, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Oh dear god, not again. Please, not again.

When will they understand? I beseech you, LISTEN. This calls for some caps lock action:

YOU ARE NOT GETTING RIPPED OFF. Nope. Not getting ripped off. Allow me to analogize; anyone ever play games like Baldur's Gate, or (going back further) the Krynn games? Back in the day games like these were released, and each one was totally stand-alone. Each game was completely independent of each other, function-wise. Except for one thing: you could import saved characters from one game into the next one. This is pretty much what Guild Wars Factions allows you to do. BUT IT IS TWO WAY. That's right, folks! You can go back... and forth.

An even better analogy of mine involved stoves, pizzas, and American versus European voltage. Maybe it went over some people's heads; I never did see it referenced anywhere else. But I might as well trot it out again. If I convince people - if I convince anyone - if I convince even one person - if I convince only one person - it will be worth these last couple minutes, in order to have one less ignavus stultissimus cavorting about.

I'll put up that oven bit as soon as I unearth it...

zeno · Apr 21, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishmaeel

Thank you for being honest about what you want, which is 7+2+1=9 and not 4+4=8 (with the hidden +1 and the final sum of 9) -- people were driving me crazy to use the 4+4=8 equation to imply that basic mathematics were undeniable proof that their demands MUST be met. This tells me you are not one of those unthinking whineys and so I can tell everyone that I agree with you on this part wholeheartedly without fear of association with a crybaby.

Yes, the original number of slots were not desirable. Yes, even though the increase in numbers (1 slot per new class) is perfect, we do not end up with a desirable number of slots, because we started with a wrong number in the first place. Yes, I do want 9 slots, even though I don't PvP yet.

However, (the rest of my post is not directed at you, WetWookie)

We, the players, are in a business relationship with ArenaNet. As much as we love each others, we essentially are not a big family nor a big band of friends. They are in this to make money. We are in this to have fun. They supply the fun, we pay them. Business.

Gli, I will be quoting you now, not to direct the following at you, but to offer my view on what you stated, for everybody to consider.
Now, in business, one has to balance the honesty factor. If the business is pure money-making and no honesty, it is called a scam. If a company tries to put all their honesty on top of their money-making, well, they would be scamming themselves, since it wouldn't work. A company will not be successful by coming out and saying "We want you to like us better than our competitors so that you will keep doing business with us and therefore we can make more money, which is what this is all about". Instead they say the diplomatic thing to say: "We want to serve you better".

ArenaNet really does want to sell us more than one copies of the game. ArenaNet really does want us to buy every upcoming chapter, more than one copies, if possible. At the very least, ArenaNet wants to sell us character slots. It is their business plan. Since they are not charging monthly, they wish to make their money in this way. They cannot do this if they give us all the slots we can use and continuous free updates like the SF.

But they cannot come out and "offer an explanation" about this either and unless the lack of honesty exceeds the "scam threshold", it is not called dishonesty. It is the subtle nuance present in what is called "professionalism". The fact that they want (need) us to keep buying is unspoken but (supposedly) universally understood. A professional supplier does not speak of some things and a professional client (yes, there is such a thing) understands it and silently respects it as long as xe believes the deal is still good value for xes money and does not violate xes interests more than it benefits xim.

But all the time, there are customers who do not grasp this concept and scream "bloody conspiracy" when they sense the underlying money-making plan. In fact, it is no conspiracy, it is not even secret, and those who understand the true meaning of "professionalism" and the diplomatic "dishonesty" involved in it will silently ignore their screams and patiently wish they would stop embarassing them.

I always knew they would offer additional slots for purchase one day. I expected one slot to be priced at about $15 (slightly more than the price of one retail copy /4, since an extra slot is better value than an empty new account/4 with the merging aspect) and pleasantly surprised to learn that they decided to offer the slots for their current price. There are people who claim the slots would be more "reasonably priced" at about 3-5 bucks. I silently ignore them.

To sum up, I understand why people want more (hell, I want more) but for the life of me, I cannot understand how people cannot see why they cannot have more.

Oh, by the way, (not kidding or being sarcastic here) I want 25 slots. 8 for Tyria pre-searing, 8 for Tyria post-searing, 8 for Cantha, and 1 for good measure so they would sit in a neat 5x5 grid on the login screen. This number may go up, if I like the Factions tutorial area as much as I like the pre-searing.

the truth. Really, people say that Anet limited the account from greed, but they'd think different if they're the budget manager.

For the last time:
Software companies write code to MAKE MONEY, not to make players happy. Yes, making players happy goes a long towards making more money, and the Anet staff may even have more amiable secondary reasons for wanting to please players. But the primary and ultimate goal is still to MAKE MONEY.

And yes, we all want more char slots, and no none of us wants to pay more for it. But you know, Guildwars has to get upkeep somehow without subscription fees. And if you think about it, this way is STILL tons better than all the other subscription mmorpgs. IMO, Anet spoiled its customers to the point where they complain even when excellent deals are staring at them right in the face.

Cjlr · Apr 21, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Woo! Found it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjlr's awesome analogy

It's like stoves. Tyria is America, and Cantha Europe. Character slots are abstracted as how many pizzas my oven can cook.
For example:

I buy a stove. It will only run on American outlets, and it can cook four pizzas at once.

I decide to take a trip to Europe. I'll obviously need to cook pizzas while I'm there. My old stove cooks them really well, but it won't do anything if I bring it as is. So...

I buy a second stove. It only complies to European outlets. It can also cook four pizzas. Now I can cook pizzas anywhere. The new oven works pretty well too. Technically, I can now cook eight pizzas simultaneously, but I'd have to fly back and forth a lot and the pizzas would burn while I was doing that...

But what if I go for the other option, and upgrade my first stove? Now it can cook pizzas anywhere, anytime. It cooks pizzas really, really well. I can now have four delicious pizzas anywhere I want. But wait! Those crafty engineers have somehow managed to give me more room in my oven. I can make six pizzas now!

Now, obviously analogy has its own problems. But I think I did a good job.

Big Tony · Apr 21, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

LMAO @ Cjlr

Exactly.. Although i doubt most will agree with your analogy....

CyberNigma · Apr 21, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because clearly people find multiple character slots desirable - some people have gone far enough that they've bought additional copies of the game. It discourages account sharing for exactly the same reason, because people want more than one character and the space gets cramped extremely quickly if you only get half an account's space.

In other words the account 'size', in terms of character slots and storage space was carefully chosen to be large enough for *most* people, while still not being nearly enough for two people. Are there people sharing accounts because they're finding a way to fit within a single account's space? Yes. Are there people who want additional space badly enough to buy another account? Yes. Are they a large market segment? Not if they chose the size correctly.

Peace,
-CxE

Quoted piecemeal to save space and make a point.

I would have to agree with Ensign on this for the most part. I think he hit the nail on the head that they were probably trying to limit sharing of accounts. However, just like he says they probably didn't think the benefits of one person buying multiple accounts were great enough, I don't think they really considered casual gamers/families sharing a single account was a problem either.

If you look at everything else, I think it goes back to professional farmers (non-bots). While it may be true that many share a single character, in a few interviews I've read and people I've chatted with, each farmer in a decent sized operation will have his/her own character on an account (customized their own specific way following, of course, the manager's guidelines overall). A good majority of the things that I see happening are a result of, or seem intended on hurting the pros (whom most of us have no sympathy for).

It goes back to the Diablo instances where hackers and pro farmers screwed up quite a bit of the game. Having said that, I think they purely did not want to save the managers any money by offering large amounts of slots. I don't think it had anything to do with anything else. It's part of their crusade against farmers. simple.

The one extra slot, however, that they were originally going to offer, was probably due to their plan to offer buyable slots (which they probably knew about beforehand). I think the recent outcry caused them to announce it early. Players are happy and the farmers will at least have to pay part of their income (mangers rather) if they want more. I believe the issue is settled and no amount of praise or protest from either side will change anything.

Remember, a big difference between East and West gaming is the micro-transaction business. They may eventually try bringing it over here slowly but surely. XBox Live is trying the same thing. You can't just spring something on someone. You instead introduce it piece by piece. If it works over there it can probably work over here.

To the OP.. I think since the issue is over and you are on the pleased side (I'm pleased as well since I don't need a ritualist), bringing this back up doesn't seem a good idea. Maybe that's just me, though.

As far as the analogy, I have to disagree, though. I think it would be like the water park and theme park both offering a coupon book with their season passes (as most do). If I buy two passes for myself (there's only one person we're talking about getting anything, not 4, as those are characters and I don't care if they get what they want), the question is more like whether I still get a coupon book with each pass (and access to each park) or if I just get one. If, like Six Flags, the coupon books are good at all parks, collectively, then they would both be valid at both parks (4 + 4 characters accessing 2 continents). If they are not affiliated with each other, or if the coupon books are only valid at the participating park then it would be more like 4 for Prophecies, and 4 others for Factions. ArenaNet is the two-park owner, so they actually decide(d) which it was: a third option that gives you 1 and a half coupon book that's good for both parks (in the middle of the two).

I got my 1 pve slot (assassin) and 1 pvp slot so basically: I got mine :-)

CyberNigma · Apr 21, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeno

But you know, Guildwars has to get upkeep somehow without subscription fees. And if you think about it, this way is STILL tons better than all the other subscription mmorpgs. IMO, Anet spoiled its customers to the point where they complain even when excellent deals are staring at them right in the face.

I think I'm on the same side as you on this issue (it's done and over), but I can't stand always seeing that argument. They knew what they were getting into when they offered a non-subscription based system. I'm sure they were aware of that when they set their pricepoint to what it is now. If you're going to justify stuff like that, do it for the reason Ensign and others (and I) have stated. You make it sound like they either 1) made a poor decision to offer a non-subscription system/bad initial pricepoint, or 2) got people into thinking it would always be 'free', while planning on adding all kinds of micro-transactions from the beginning.

Also, please quit comparing it to MMORPGS. They've stated (even though they favor comparisons in reviews) that they are not an MMORPG. Consider it more like a centrally-hosted Dungeon Siege (or NWN), with the cities being really large lobbies, except that characters can go back AND forth. Well.. at least the PvE portion of it.

WasAGuest · Apr 22, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Wouldn't the theme park scenario work more like this:

Family of 6 plans on going to the park. Tickets, however were only sold in packs of four. So for all family members to get in, though be seperated once in, they had to purchase two packs.
A new section of the park opens up and now the family can all get in, but since then, they've had out of town family come to stay with them, for a total of eight people now.
With the new attractions in the park, the park has added two spots to the admision packs. Again, the family needs to purchase another admision pack to gain access the new attractions and find themselves apart once in.
The park seeing the issue, has now started to sell single admission tickets.

In anycase, I'm beyond pleased with the option to add more slots for my account. I can now (or will anyway) be able to play each primary class as I have always wanted without deleting (which I had to do rescently *whimper*) another character I enjoyed playing. /does the happy dance

@Mordakai - didn't we "meet" in the original slot thread? lol - sorry, OT.

Cjlr · Apr 22, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I keep tellin' ya, the theme park analogy is flawed. What you're looking for, is a stove analogy. Which I believe I posted earlier.

Mandy Memory · Apr 22, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetWookie

How does my post make any less sense then the opening post. If you have nothing to add to the conversation other then bashing the people who disagree with you then don't post at all.

lyra makes post that I disagree with. However she is not just bashing. She is trying to explain how she feels. I respect that. But just coming on and saying "I disagree with you so you must be rambling senslessly are you're an idiot because you don't agree with me" is just stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetWookie

I would agree with this analogy....

if Anet's goal was to make my characters happy instead of me. I'm the one paying for the products, not my characters.

A more accurate analogy would be
One 4 hour ticket to theme park = $50
One 4 hour ticket to water park = $50
One 6 hour ticket to theme+water park = $100

Wouldn't you expect the package deal to be less then the full cost of both tickets or at the very least get the same content (8 hours)?

Did you really only play the game 4 hours? If you didnt, your post makes no.....I give up......Believe whatever you want. If being wrong makes you happy, who am I to argue?

An actual accurate analogy would be:
4 lifelong tickets to theme park = $50
4 lifelong tickets to water park = $50

4 lifelong tickets to theme+water park = $100
. +2 bonus lifelong tickets to both parks.

JoeKnowMo · May 02, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

My take on the fuzzy math. This is just for grins n giggles

Buy Prophecies or Factions alone - 4 x 50 = 200
Buy both but do not combine - 8 x 50 = 400
Combine the two - 6 x 100 = 600
Add two more slots - 8 x 100 = 800

Thus, our $50 only got us 200/50 = 4 points of fun per $1
Spend $100 but don't combine gives you 400/100 = 4 points of fun per $1
Spend $100 and combine gives us 600/100 = 6 points of fun per $1
But wait, spend $120 (2 more slots) and combine gets 800/120 = 6.67 points of fun per $1
Hold on though, if we look at the $20 for the 2 additional slots, that gets you 200 points. Thus, we have 200/20 = 10 points of fun per $1

The original game only gave us 4 points of fun per $1 though. What a ripoff.

Next chapter, 2 more slots, another $50 and another 50 points of content - 8 x 150 = 1,000
1,000/150 = 6.67 points of fun per $1
Add another 2 slots then, 10 x 150 = 1,500
1,500/170 = 8.8 points of fun per $1
So another $20 during Chapter 3 gets you an additional 500 points of fun for $20 so
500/20 = a whopping 25 points of fun per $1. (Illegal in most states, I believe)

This is only going to get better with each chapter. Maybe Anet should start taking away character slots from us after chapter 4.

The equation that works for me (and for many other):
Great game + No monthly fee = Lotsa buyers no matter how much they might whine and moan.